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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Lexomics&#8221; &#8211; Breaking the language barrier</title>
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	<link>http://henry.simon.net.nz/stories/2008/05/22/lexomics-breaking-the-language-barrier/</link>
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		<title>By: Simon Greenhill</title>
		<link>http://henry.simon.net.nz/stories/2008/05/22/lexomics-breaking-the-language-barrier/comment-page-1/#comment-1280</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Greenhill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 09:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi Richard, thanks for the comment(s)!

&lt;blockquote&gt;
The trouble with “lexomics” is, as some of the commenters on the Nature article pointed out,is that the process is Lamarckian, not Darwinian; it’s driven, not followed. If I was a lithping king, I could make all my thubjects lithp without too much trouble.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sure, but this is entirely irrelevant. The methods we&#039;re using (phylogenetics) are top-down views of evolution and just reconstruct the history. They&#039;re relying on a system that evolves through &quot;descent with modification&quot; and not necessarily &quot;survival of the fittest&quot;. We discuss this in more detail in a paper called &lt;a href=&quot;http://simon.net.nz/articles/the-pleasures-and-perils-of-darwinizing-culture-with-phylogenies/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Pleasures and Perils of Darwinizing Culture&lt;/a&gt;.


The same goes for fossils - phylogenetic methods absolutely don&#039;t need fossils. If we have them, then we can incorporate them. However, modern languages carry around remnants of their ancestors &lt;i&gt; in them&lt;/i&gt;. That is, two languages that are closely related should share a lot of features with their ancestor. One of the benefits of phylogenetics is that we can &lt;i&gt;infer&lt;/i&gt; ancestral states using probabilistic models to estimate the most likely ancestral variant. In fact the Bayesian likelihood methods we&#039;re using deliberately sum across all possible ancestral state assignments at every node on every tree. Yes, it is just an estimate, but it&#039;s the closest we can get without a time machine. I&#039;m working on a paper explaining this in more detail, but it&#039;s quite a way off yet, but Quentin and Russell&#039;s paper &lt;a href=&quot;http://language.psy.auckland.ac.nz/publications/index.php?pub=Atkinson_and_Gray2006&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here might help&lt;/a&gt; explain a bit.

Hope this helps!
--Simon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Richard, thanks for the comment(s)!</p>
<blockquote><p>
The trouble with “lexomics” is, as some of the commenters on the Nature article pointed out,is that the process is Lamarckian, not Darwinian; it’s driven, not followed. If I was a lithping king, I could make all my thubjects lithp without too much trouble.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sure, but this is entirely irrelevant. The methods we&#8217;re using (phylogenetics) are top-down views of evolution and just reconstruct the history. They&#8217;re relying on a system that evolves through &#8220;descent with modification&#8221; and not necessarily &#8220;survival of the fittest&#8221;. We discuss this in more detail in a paper called <a href="http://simon.net.nz/articles/the-pleasures-and-perils-of-darwinizing-culture-with-phylogenies/" rel="nofollow">The Pleasures and Perils of Darwinizing Culture</a>.</p>
<p>The same goes for fossils &#8211; phylogenetic methods absolutely don&#8217;t need fossils. If we have them, then we can incorporate them. However, modern languages carry around remnants of their ancestors <i> in them</i>. That is, two languages that are closely related should share a lot of features with their ancestor. One of the benefits of phylogenetics is that we can <i>infer</i> ancestral states using probabilistic models to estimate the most likely ancestral variant. In fact the Bayesian likelihood methods we&#8217;re using deliberately sum across all possible ancestral state assignments at every node on every tree. Yes, it is just an estimate, but it&#8217;s the closest we can get without a time machine. I&#8217;m working on a paper explaining this in more detail, but it&#8217;s quite a way off yet, but Quentin and Russell&#8217;s paper <a href="http://language.psy.auckland.ac.nz/publications/index.php?pub=Atkinson_and_Gray2006" rel="nofollow">here might help</a> explain a bit.</p>
<p>Hope this helps!<br />
&#8211;Simon</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://henry.simon.net.nz/stories/2008/05/22/lexomics-breaking-the-language-barrier/comment-page-1/#comment-1272</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 05:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://henry.simon.net.nz/?p=619#comment-1272</guid>
		<description>The trouble with &quot;lexomics&quot; is, as some of the commenters on the Nature article pointed out,is that the process is Lamarckian, not Darwinian; it&#039;s driven, not followed. If I was a lithping king, I could make all my thubjects lithp without too much trouble.

The other major problem is that there aren&#039;t any fossils*. All the ancestors are hypothetical proto-languages. If you take all the most common characteristics of an existing clade (or as many as you can find) and distill them down to the lowest common denominators, you&#039;ll end up with a &#039;proto-language&#039;.

But you can&#039;t be at all sure that major characteristics of the original ancestral language have not been entirely lost, or preserved in only a minority of the existing remnant languages. (Which you ignored, just because they were a minority).

Then, to trace the &#039;descendents&#039; from this hypothetical language is absurd.

Even then, though, I hope some of the newer generation  of linguists (you, Simon? - please)can use the mechanical/statistical techniques used by geneticists to resolve some major &#039;language family tree&#039; problems, like the star-like pattern of supposed descendents from proto-Austronesian and proto-Oceanic.

regards

Richard
*Except where we have surviving scripts. But it was pointed out a long time ago that if the Comparative Method was used, retrospectively, on the Romance languages, the resulting proto-language would NOT be Latin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The trouble with &#8220;lexomics&#8221; is, as some of the commenters on the Nature article pointed out,is that the process is Lamarckian, not Darwinian; it&#8217;s driven, not followed. If I was a lithping king, I could make all my thubjects lithp without too much trouble.</p>
<p>The other major problem is that there aren&#8217;t any fossils*. All the ancestors are hypothetical proto-languages. If you take all the most common characteristics of an existing clade (or as many as you can find) and distill them down to the lowest common denominators, you&#8217;ll end up with a &#8216;proto-language&#8217;.</p>
<p>But you can&#8217;t be at all sure that major characteristics of the original ancestral language have not been entirely lost, or preserved in only a minority of the existing remnant languages. (Which you ignored, just because they were a minority).</p>
<p>Then, to trace the &#8216;descendents&#8217; from this hypothetical language is absurd.</p>
<p>Even then, though, I hope some of the newer generation  of linguists (you, Simon? &#8211; please)can use the mechanical/statistical techniques used by geneticists to resolve some major &#8216;language family tree&#8217; problems, like the star-like pattern of supposed descendents from proto-Austronesian and proto-Oceanic.</p>
<p>regards</p>
<p>Richard<br />
*Except where we have surviving scripts. But it was pointed out a long time ago that if the Comparative Method was used, retrospectively, on the Romance languages, the resulting proto-language would NOT be Latin.</p>
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